The "Rapture"

I followed up with this e-mail:

Quote:

Hey Tim!

Glad to have you write back and thanks so much for the information on Rosh Hasanah, I appreciate it very much.

You mentioned that you found the notion of the "rapture" being secret odd. So do I! When Christ returns it will be visible, noisy, and glorious! Therefore the notion that he "secretly" comes back to take "the church" away (always the "American" church no doubt!), and then for seven years the world is thrown into tribulation and at the end of those seven years Christ comes back again is simply biblically false. Whether or not there were early church "fathers" that believed in this "secret" rapture is insignificant if what they believed and taught were at odds with the Holy Scriptures.

While you may consider it odd to blame dispensationalism on the Jesuits, facts are indeed facts, and they are extremely hard to get around. However, always being willing to listen and hear various viewpoints, if you could send me some proof texts of the dispensationalism these early church fathers taught prior to the Jesuits I'd be much obliged.

Also, while you may consider it nonsense that a "majority" view is akin to the "broadway" of destruction you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I do have to point out that God the Father never seems to save the "majority" in scripture, but just a remnant of those who do His will, nor does God the Father seem to save people from trouble, but rather through it.

The scriptures simply do not teach that God the Father saves anyone "from" something bad happening. He does save people "through" something bad happening.

And while you are free to call names (1 Corinthians 13 prevents me from doing likewise), and consider what I believe to be from the mind-set on a "conspiracy nut" keep in mind that the Bible said it would be like this in the last days. The some would **not endure sound doctrine but instead would heap upon themselves teachers that love to scratch an itch.
Jesus is coming again, this is indisputable. That why it is called "the second" coming. He comes suddenly and quickly. The very heavens will pass away with great noise not "quietly" or "secretly." The very elements of Earth will melt with the fervent heat, and be burned up from the Shekinah Glory of Jesus Christ Himself.

Tim, I would love to continue to discuss this important and vital topic with you, to hopefully further your understanding, but unfortunately I feel as if I'd be wasting my time. Yet, I suppose it is good to keep in mind that as more and more people buy the false teaching of the "secret rapture" and more and more people allow themselves to be deceived and misled by this dangerous false doctrine, there will always be a small minority, a "remnant" if you will, that are faithful to teach sound doctrine and the true Word of God.

May the Lord continue to work on opening your heart to the truth.

See you on the other side....

Bless God,

David

My next e-mail was an article from Pastor Alan Campbell:

Quote:

**

*THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL?*

/By/

*/Alan Campbell/*

**

*A*LL over the world today there is an awakening to the near return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and a growing interest in the signs of the times. As Bible believing Christians we rejoice at this phenomenon, yet sad to say, in almost every case the doctrine of the Lord's return has been mixed in with the teaching that He will return first* *secretly and 'rapture' or take away His Church. Although Church History will show that such a theory has only come into prominence over the last one hundred and fifty years, today it is spreading like wildfire,* *in books, and even films, and accounts for the teaching in 90% of Full Gospel and Fundamentalist Churches and Bible Colleges, world-wide. This being the case it is our duty as students of God's prophetic Word to examine this doctrine of the Secret Rapture, and ask ourselves -'Is it Scriptural?'

*THE ORIGINS*

When we remember that the Secret Rapture theory was virtually unheard of and untaught until around 1830, it is essential to examine its origins first.* *Such a teaching was unknown to the early Church Fathers e.g. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, who were convinced that the Christian Church would pass through great tribulation at the hands of the antichrist system before the return of the Lord. Furthermore the Rapture theory was not taught by the great stalwarts of the Reformed Faith - Huss, Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Cranmer or even by the Wesley brothers in the 18th Century. Whence came this teaching therefore and where did this novel. idea arise?

At the time of the Reformation, the first Protestants widely believed and taught that the Papacy was antichrist, and the Roman Church the Harlot System of Revelation 17. It therefore became necessary for certain Romish theologians to take the pressure off the Pope by inventing a new school of prophetic interpretation now known as Futurism. It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera (1537-1591) who first taught that the events prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation would not be fulfilled until three and a half years at the end of the age when an individual world dictator called Anti-Christ would arise. Thus Ribera laid the foundation of a system of prophetic interpretation of which the Secret Rapture has now become an integral part.

Nevertheless in spite of the efforts of false prophets like Ribera and Cardinal Bellarmine it was not for another two and a half centuries that the Jesuit fables began to gain acceptance by Evangelical Christians. In the early 19th Century Futurism entered the bloodstream of Protestant prophetic teaching by three main roads:

(a) A Chilean Jesuit priest, Emmanuel Lacunza wrote a book entitled /'The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty'/, and in its pages taught the novel notion that Christ returns not once, but twice, and at the 'first stage' of His return He /'raptures/' His Church so they can escape the reign of the /'future antichrist/'. In order to avoid any taint of Romanism, Lacunza published his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra, a supposedly converted Jew. Lacunza's book found its way to the library of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and there in 1826 Dr Maitland, the Archbishop's librarian came upon it and read it and soon after began to issue a series of parnphlets giving the Jesuit, Futurist view of prophecy. The idea soon found acceptance in the Anglo-Catholic Ritualist movement in the National Church of England, and soon it tainted the very heart of Protestantism.

(b) The Secret Rapture doctrine was given a second door of entrance at this time by the ministry of one, Edward Irving, founder of the so-called/ 'Catholic Apostolic Church'/. It was in Irving's London church, in 1830, that a young girl named Margaret McDonald gave an ecstatic prophecy in which she claimed there would be a special secret coming of the Lord to /'rapture'/ those awaiting His return. From then until his death in 1834 Irving devoted his considerable talent as a preacher to spreading the theory of the /'secret rapture'/.

(c) However, it was necessary for Jesuitry to have a third door of entrance to the Reforrned fold and this they gained via a sincere Christian, J. N. Darby <http>, generally regarded as the founder of the 'Brethren'. As an Anglican curate Darby attended a number of mysteriously organised meetings on Bible Prophecy at Powerscourt in Ireland, and at these gatherings he learned about the /'secret rapture'/. He carried the teaching into the Brethren and hence into the heart of Evangelicalism. With a new veneer of being scriptural the teaching spread and was later popularised in the notes of the Schofield Reference Bible.

So today the three measures of Roman leaven have corrupted the Prophetic teaching of almost all the Fundamentalist world. Well might we say of the /'secret rapture'/, can any good thing come out of Rome?

*THE PROOF TEXTS EXAMINED*

Whilst the Romanist origin of any doctrine is always sufficient to make it suspect, our Final court of appeal must be to the Holy Scriptures, and so we find it necessary to examine some of the favourite 'Proof Texts' which are quoted by the Rapturists and see just what they really teach.

***(A) Coming as a Thief *

Our blessed Lord said: 'But know this, that if the good man of the house, had known in what hour the thief would come he would have watched and not have suffered the house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not your Lord will corne.' Matt. 24:43-44; Luke 12:39-40.

The Rapturists tell us that this shows the secret nature of the Lord's /'coming for'/ the saints, but does it? The only secrecy implied in the texts is in relation to the day and hour of Christ's coming and there is nothing to indicate that the coming itself is a secret. In fact we are told:

/'The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of an Archangel and the TRUMP of God.'/ I Thess. 4:16. Nothing quiet about that, is there?

Again they refer us to the words: /'I will come on thee as a thief in the night and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.'/ Rev. 3:3. Or again:

/'Behold I come as a thief, blessed is he that watcheth.'/ Rev. 16:15.

However, in both instances just quoted, the secrecy is in connection with the timing not the nature of the event, and it is exactly the same in the other /'thief text/'.

/'The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night'/ II Peter 3:10

Here again it is the element of surprise that leads to the use of the thief as a symbol. Peter himself finishes* *this very same '/thief text'/ by saying that at the time of the Lord's coming:

/'The heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE' /

Not much secrecy about that is there? After all did not Paul tell his readers:

/'But ye brethren ARE NOT in darkness that, that day shall overtake you as a thief.'/ I Thess. 5:4.

You see, as Christians, they were studying the signs of the times as we should be doing and were ready for Christ's return. He will only come as a thief for those who are not prepared for Him.

Furthermore the very concept of a /'thief'/ must be called into question for, at the time when our Lord and the Apostles spoke, a thief was much more likely to be a bandit or leader of a gang of robbers who swept down on his victims in swift, sudden, but open and daring raids, and he was not a sneak thief or burglar, as we have today.

*(B) As in the Days of Noah *

The Rapturists would have us believe that the Lord comes secretly to rescue His people before what they call 'the great tribulation' or time of trouble begins. To support this idea they quote the Lord Jesus as saying: /'As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be ... then shall two be in the field,* *the one shall be taken, the other left. Watch therefore for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.'/ Matt. 24:37-42.

How often we have heard this text used to challenge sinners to come to Christ and of the terrible things that will happen when their Christian friends and relatives have been /'raptured'/. Let us not take the text from its context to make it a pretext. The clear setting and key to the understanding of the verse is: /'As it was in the days of Noah'/, and we all know that then it was the wicked who were taken away and the righteous left to inherit a purified earth. Such a concept of the removal of the wicked is in keeping with the clear teaching given by our Lord in two of His Kingdom Parables. In that of the Wheat and the Tares, we are told that the harvest is the end of the age, when the angels will gather out of the kingdom, the tares which represent the wicked or those who offend. Again in the same thirteenth chapter of Matthew's Gospel, we find* *the Parable of the Dragnet. In its symbolism it is the bad or evil ones who are removed out of the Kingdom for Jesus says:

/'So shall it be at the end of the world (age), the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from the just.'/ Matt. 13:49.

If a third witness were needed the Old Testament prophet Isaiah tells us:

/'Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate, and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.' /

Let me ask you to consider very carefully just who the Lord will /'rapture'/ or remove. Surely it is His intention to give this earth into the possession of the righteous as He said in His Sermon on the Mount. Did not our Lord pray in John 17: 15:

/'I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil'? /

Surely our Lord promised to be with us not until the 'secret rapture' but 'to the end of the age.'

**(C) ***Coming For and With the Saints *

Another favourite proof text of the Rapturists is Jude v 14:

/'Behold the Lord cometh, with ten thousands of His Saints.' /

Then by coupling this to first Thessalonians 4:16-17 where we are told that the saints will be /'caught up together ... in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air' /they glibly tell us that Christ comes first* */for /His saints, and that He returns /with /the saints, after either three and a half or seven years - a period of time which they cannot agree on.

Once again we find* *that all is not as simple as they would have us believe. It is indeed true that at His Coming, the dead in Christ together with the living believers will be translated or caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but there is no Scripture to even suggest that He takes them to Heaven where they remain for a period of time, be it long or short, and then return with Him. Far from it, they meet the Lord in the air as His entourage or glory train, as earthly courtiers would go out to greet their King, as He is on His way back to earth where His feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives as the disciples were told at the time of His Ascension. So let us look at the verse in Jude which refers to coming /'with the Saints'/. The word translated /'saints'/ in our Bible comes from a Greek word /HAGIOUS, /which means Holy. Since Christ Himself taught that:

'The Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the Holy /(//HAGIOUS) /angels with Him. Matt. 25:31 It seems more than likely that the word translated saints in Jude refers to angels. Since the verse referred to in Jude speaks of Christ returning with His saints to execute judgement we would do well to examine another similar verse of scripture which tells us the same thing:

'The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire* *taking vengeance on them who know not God, and obey not the Gospel.' II Thess. 1:7-8.

It seems we need not the Rapturists' theories, for Scripture interprets itself and one verse can often throw light upon another. Let us also remember that the expression /'ten thousands of His Saints'/ is not only in Jude but in Deuteronomy 33:2:

/'The Lord came from Sinai ... with ten thousands of His saints.' /

There can therefore be no doubt that these /'saints'/ were angels, a fact attested to by Matthew Henry's Commentary, and the extra-canonical Book of Enoch. So much for coming /'for'/ and 'with' the saints.

*(D) The Time Gap and the Greek Wording *

Let us look again briefly at I Thess. 4 for here we are clearly told that at the moment the living saints are caught up to meet the Lord the righteous dead are also resurrected. Now if the Futurists and Rapturists are correct and there is indeed a time gap before the Lord returns, or the Day of the Lord occurs, there is surely a grave discrepancy for Martha believed that her brother Lazarus would:/ 'rise again in the Resurrection at the last day.'/ John 11:24. Job, the Old Testament saint also taught that the dead would not rise until /'the heavens be no more'/ Job 14:10-12 or 'the latter day' Job 19:25-27.

The order of events in I Thess. 4:16-17 clearly shows what happens at the last day or Day of the Lord is:

*a)* The trump of God sounds;

*b) *The dead in Christ are raised:

c) The living saints are translated (not /'raptured'/).

There certainly does not seem to be room left here for a time gap of any length. In spite of this clear sequence of events, in their determination to prove otherwise, the Rapturists will still defend their mistaken concept of a coming in two stages, by appealing to the distinction between the two Greek words used, in connection with the coming. These words are /Parousia, /which they contend is coming first to rapture the believers and /Apokalupsis /which they say is open, visible coming back with the saints after a lapse of time. In reality there are actually six Greek words used in connection with the return of the Lord. For the sake of simplicity we shall list these words, with their English rendering and go on to show that the inspired writers of the New Testament used them interchangeably to describe not two distinct and separate comings but one event.

*1*. *Parousia** - *This word emphasises the physical or actual personal presence of the one who comes e.g. /'Be patient unto the COMING (in person) of the Lord.'/ James 5:7.

* *

**2. Apokalupsis* - *This word stresses the /'revealing' /or unveiling of the one who comes e.g. /'The Lord shall be REVEALED from Heaven.'/ II Thess. 1:7.

* *

**3. Epiphaneia* - *This word is used in the sense of the Glory or Majesty that will be manifested as Christ returns e.g. /'The APPEARING of our Lord Jesus.'/ I Tim. 6:14.

* *

**4. Heko* - *This word is used to emphasise the idea of arrival at a certain point or place e.g. /'Hold fast till I COME (to you).'/ Rev. 2:25.

*5. *Erchomai ***- *This word is used to imply the actual act or event of coming e.g. /'Occupy till I COME (make the journey).'/ Luke 19: 13.

* *

**6. Phaneroo* - *This word means to render apparent e.g. '/When He shall APPEAR we shall be like Him'/ I John 32.

Out of these six words, the one most used is Parousia, but never in the sense of anything that is secret. Paul frequently used this word to refer to the physical presence of himself and others at various locations e.g. he spoke of the 'coming' (PAROUSIA) of Titus to him from Corinth, II Cor. 7:6, and again in the same Epistle the 'coming' (PAROUSIA) of Stephanas etc. I Cor. 16:17. Again when writing to the saints at Philippi, Paul said that he would be 'coming' (PAROUSIA) to visit them. Furthermore Paul spoke of the 'Coming (PAROUSIA) of the Lord and our gathering together to Him.' II Thess. 2 as an event seen by all after the appearance of antichrist, not in secret before the appearance of antichrist.

Not only Paul but Peter also used these words PAROUSIA and APOKALUPSIS, and actually used them to refer to the same event, the open manifest, coming again of the Lord Jesus. To see this compare I Peter 1:13 to II Peter 3. To confirm that the two words are interchangeable, we find that Matthew in his Gospel referring to the last days says:

/'As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming (PAROUSIA) of the Son of Man be.'/ Matt. 24:37.

Yet Luke referring to the same event in his Gospel writes:

/'As it was in the days of Noah ... even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man shall be revealed (APOKALUPSIS).'/ Luke 17:26-30.

Surely this is proof if it is still required that the idea of two comings is at best a nonsense and at worst a deliberate deception. Before leaving this issue we should also say that the other Greek words listed previously can also be used interchangeably, although implying various shades or degrees of meaning.

EPIPHANEIA is used to refer to the Lord returning to destroy antichrist:

/'with the brightness of His COMING.'/ II Thess. 2:8.

Certainly nothing secret about that event. PHANEROO can be found in I Peter 5:4.

'/When the chief Shepherd shall appear ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.' /

Without doubt the crowning glory of the saints at the Lord's return will be open and for all to see.

ERCHOMAI and HEKO are actually used in the same sentence to describe the same event:

/'For yet a little while and He that shall come (ERCHOMAI) will come (HEKO) and will not tarry.' /Hebrews 10:37.

In the light of these and many other similar verses it is apparent that the original Greek text confounds and refutes the Secret Rapture teaching rather than confirming and sustaining it.

*CAN CHRIST COME BACK AT ANY MOMENT?*

Frequently coupled with the Secret Rapture doctrine is the equally misguided notion that Christ can come back at any moment, even tonight, as we so often hear well-meaning Evangelists proclaim. Whilst we do not doubt the Lord's ability, we do believe that God is the author not of confusion, but of a great plan for the ages. This being the case, and although we are well aware that no man knows the exact day and hour of Christ's return, it is equally certain that a number of prophecies yet await their complete fulfilment and that not until we witness these things come to pass, can we expect the Lord at any moment. It was this very doctrine which had come into the Church at Thessalonica and made it necessary for Paul to write:

/'Now we beseech you brethren by (concerning) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by (concerning) our gathering together unto Him that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand (at any moment), let no man deceive you, for that day shall not come except there come, a falling away first* *and the Man of Sin be revealed.'/ II Thess. 2:13.

Now those who believe in the Secret Rapture and that Christ can come at any moment say He will gather the believers before antichrist appears yet the Scripture says the direct opposite.

Again like so much of their teaching it is confusion, confounded, and Scripture stood upon its head.

*CONCLUSION: A CALL AND A WARNING!*

Dear reader, it is our sincere and earnest prayer that this article will convince you of the unscriptural nature of the Secret Rapture doctrine. Instead of preparing God's people to face the increasingly difficult days ahead, as tribulation intensifies, this doctrine has deluded millions of Christians into a false notion of escapism, and instead of obeying the Lord's command to resist evil and occupy until He comes, they have been made so Rapture-minded that they no longer even resist the evil, believing not that they will defeat it, but instead be rescued from it.

Let the Christian reader be up and doing in these last days, obeying the great commission given by our Lord in Matthew 10:

/'Go, preach saying the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received. Freely give.'/

Let the unconverted reader hear again the words of Jesus to one who was a ruler in Israel:
/'Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God ... Ye must be born again.'/ John 3 v 3-7.

Then we will/ /all meet soon at that Great Day, when our Lord translates and resurrects His saints and returns with them to rule and reign upon the Throne of His father David in that great Kingdom that shall never end.

_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."

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Bless God,

David

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This is pure made up fantasy, designed to sell fiction books (ala The Left Behind series) and a fictional theology. Reality would dictate that these folks would be hearing a loud noise, and a tremendous shout, and leave their study to go outside to see the dead in Christ "sleeping" in their graves rise out of them (see Matthew 27:50-53) and then the Lord coming in the clouds and in all His glory. This is clearly what verses 15-17 describe.
We know the Lord's return is certainly eminent. However, He's on His time frame, not ours. There have been many since Christ walked the earth who have believed that His coming was to be in their day in time. Yet if we know that a 1,000 years are to the Lord but a mere day (24 hrs.) and a day is as a 1,000 years, then every 42 years equate into an hour on God's eternal clock, and that means Christ has only been gone two days." Now that's not to suggest His return isn't eminent, it's to suggests that it will be in His time, and on His clock, not ours nor our understanding. Also, just because some believed in Christ's return as being eminent, doesn't mean that they had a different view regarding His second coming.

The bottom line is that the "rapture" theology teaches that the rapture does not take at the literal, visible, and noisy second coming of our Lord and Savior, but seven years before it and that is as false as the fiction (not true) books sold that portray it as fact. While you may say that it isn't secret you are clearly suggesting that Christ's "second coming" is done in two stages, first for the church and then seven years later. I believe this is patently false theology based on fiction not fact.

Also, thanks for the historical data that you provided, but I think it's rather flimsy to suggest that what you provided is clear cut proof that the "secret rapture" doctrine was taught by anyone prior to the Reformation. The history you provided conveniently suggest that the "earliest post-reformation" writings started in the early 1600's, completely ignoring Ribera and de Alcasar, and ignored a period of almost 1,200 years by traversing from the 400's to the 1,600's.

Anyway, good luck with your theology. I sincerely pray that you won't be too disappointed when things don't quite happen the way you believe they will, but I'm not so certain. However, I have to say I do feel sorry and saddened for all those conned out of their money, led to a fictional story and false theology that has no foundation or standing in Biblical fact.

Bless God,

David

I've not taken the time to look into the SDA rapture doctrine, but am a pre-tribber, of which persuasion the apostles and those they discipled, scripture seems to record. They were all looking for the return of Christ in their, or at least St. John's, lifetime.

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God understands me. why don't you?!

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you too!

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God understands me. why don't you?!

Hey guys! I am actually post-trib rapture, but I do understand how these discussions get tiresome. So what I have decided to do was hope for pre-trib, but prepare for tribulation. That way all my bases are covered.

	Prophetess wrote:
	Hey guys! I am actually post-trib rapture, but I do understand how these discussions get tiresome. So what I have decided to do was hope for pre-trib, but prepare for tribulation. That way all my bases are covered.

Jesus said that we are to watch for Him, not to watch for something said in prophecy. So whether He comes pre-, mid-, or post-trib; I will endure what I must endure and be looking for the first thing smoking out of here: rapture or death.

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God understands me. why don't you?!

From a study with a friend, used with permission.

At least give it a read and some thought;

Wink

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This is a study of the Greek word, harpazo.

Caught Up {KJV}

The word rapture is not in any of the Codices. Not in Greek form, not in Latin form, not in any form whatsoever.

The Latin of the word rapture would be [raptus]. The etymology of this word is lets say there’s an eruption of air bubbles coming up from the bottom of the ocean and they reach the surface, then the air from the bubbles is dispersed into the atmosphere. This is where we get "rapture of the deep". The only problem with this is it can in no way and no where in scripture be used to define the Greek word for ”caught up" which is [harpazo] which is the word used in the manuscripts. The language may change from translation to translation, from Greek to Latin, but the definitions of the God breathed words in scripture do not.

The definition of this Greek word harpazo is to seize, catch away, pluck, pull, take by force. It has absolutely nothing to do with going up. So lets go to scripture where [ harpazo ] is used.

Matthew 13
19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away (harpazo) that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Something sown in your heart is something you are thinking. It’s what’s in your mind. It is not a ”rapture”.

Acts 8
39 And when they were come up out of the water,
the spirit of the Lord caught away (harpazo) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: And he went on his way rejoicing.
40.
But Philip was found at Azotus:
And passing through, he preached in all the cities,
till he came to Ceasarea.

Philip wasn’t ”raptured” but through the Holy Spirit and doing the will of God he was seized, pulled away, or taken by force if you will, to continue preaching the Gospel.

2Cor.12:2,4
I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago, ( whether in the body, I can not tell; or whether out of the body I can not tell: God knoweth. ) such an one caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven.

Paul is speaking of himself here. We know he was stoned almost to death and those that were with him thought him to be dead. As we read on we know that Paul saw paradise and heard unspeakable things there. This is not a ”rapture” because Paul was still alive here on earth in the flesh and no connection to 1Thess.4:17 as it wasn't the second advent.

John 10:12
But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd,
Who’s own the sheep are not,
Sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and flees:
And the wolf catcheth (harpazo) them
And scattereth the sheep.

Meaning seized, took by force, pluck or pulled away. The wolf did not "rapture" the sheep.

Rev.12:5
And she brought forth a man child,
who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.
And her child was caught up (harpazo) unto God and to His throne.

This is referring to psalm 2:7-9 and Acts 1:10. Not the second advent of 1Thess.4:17. Christ was pulled away leaving all of us left in abeyance until His second coming as was foretold by the prophets.

1Thess.4:13-18.
The subject of these verses is where are the dead? God knows how we mourn when we lose a loved one, so through Paul He gives us some very comforting words and that we sorrow not. The word ”asleep”, as translated by the King James translators = dead, or deceased.

1 Thessalonians 4.
13.
But I would not have you ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, (deceased) that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Others which have no hope are non believers. So Paul is saying don’t be ignorant like them about where those that pass away, the deceased, are. That we sorrow not! Why? Here comes the answer to the subject of where are the dead?

14.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them which also sleep (become deceased) in Jesus will God bring with him.

We know from scripture that Christ is the resurrection and the life. Christ Himself teaching us that though we be dead we shall never die. This flesh goes back to the dust, but the spirit lives on…

Ecclesiastes 12:7 shows us when we die, our flesh goes back to the earth that it came from and our spirit goes back to the Father who created it. The flesh dies, but the spirit lives on.

1 Thessalonians 4 cont….
15.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. (Deceased)

The only way that can be is if they are already with the Lord. That’s what Paul is teaching us. So we have those that have passed on, and we have those that are alive and remain at the Lords coming. PERIOD! The word ”which” in that verse separates the two, one being those who are deceased and the others who are alive and remain at the Lords coming. Not multiple comings, ONE COMING! So there should be no confusion about where those who have gone before are. The Lords coming is a one- time event. Nowhere in scripture does it speak of anything else.

Here is the same verse in the Interlinear Bible

15.
For we say this to you in [the] Word of [the] Lord, that we the living (as opposed to those who are already deceased) who remain to the coming of the Lord not at all will go before those who have fallen asleep (those who are deceased)

If no one that is alive when the Lord returns can go before the one's that have already died, what does that tell us? It tells us they ( the ones that are already dead ) must already be with the Lord!

16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God:

And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

This is the message that the Holy Spirit, through Paul, is trying to convey to those who study to show themselves approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Those that are dead will already be with Christ. Christ is the resurrection and the LIFE. But we still have those who are alive and remain at His coming that will change from this corruptible body to their spiritual body at the last trump.

Here is the same verse in the Interlinear Bible.

16.
Because the Lord Himself shall come down from heaven with a trumpet call of the archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The dead in Christ will already be with Him. That’s why those who are alive and remain do not precede them who have already passed away. That’s the subject! So what about everybody else that are alive at this time when our Lord returns with all those who whom have gone before us?

17.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them (the host of heaven and all those who were deceased, in Christ, before the last trumpet) in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If we are to take this in the context of those who claim this is a pre-tribulation rapture, then they must also conclude that they will be forever in the clouds, in the air, with the Lord instead of here on earth, in new Jerusalem, in their incorruptible bodies having put on immortality. But God’s not going to renew the earth for nothing. And the two angels in white, in Acts chapter 1, who stood on the mount of Olives with the disciples didn’t tell them that as you see Him ascend, so in like manner you will see Him descend for nothing either. So there must be something incorrect with the ”rapturest” interpretation of scripture.

Here is the part where most people who believe in the false teaching of a rapture stumble at the message Paul is conveying in these scriptures…

"Them in the clouds" is simply Paul’s way of expressing the same "cloud of witnesses" that he spoke of in Heb.12:1. The Greek expresses the prime nephos as a distinct cloud and the word that comes from this prime nephele as ”an indefinite cloudy mass that covers the heavens”. Both can denote a throng, whether it be of people, angels, locust etc.

Since it is written that “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints”. (Jude 14.)

And…

”Behold, He cometh with clouds; And every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him. And all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

If we have rightly divided the word, then we know of a certainty that the clouds that are spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the throng of angels, the saints, the ten thousands of angels that Christ descends with.

The word "air" as it is used here, [aer] in the Greek, means to breath unconsciously i.e. respire.

Paul is talking about the breath of life. The same breath-of-life that God breathed into Adam. We will meet the Lord in the spirit.

We will ”meet”, is the verb which in the Greek denotes to come or go from a place toward a person; and as so to meet face to face from opposite directions. We will meet the Lord in the spiritual as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15. It does not mean to be forever with the Lord in the fluffy clouds up there in the sky. That goes contrary to scripture. Christ is going to descend one time and one time only to the Mt. of Olives. That’s where all, who are alive and remain, will be gathered to meet the Lord.

1 Thess. 4
18.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Remember what the subject was? This is about where the deceased are. The folks in the rapture camp have taken one of the most comforting set of scriptures God has given us in a time of sorrow when we lose an loved one and turned it, and other scriptures as well, into something they were never intended to be.

You know what Sheep, I am leaning towards no rapture as well. but there is one verse in Revelations that made me thinkg it was possible, but only AFTER the tribulation. I know from reading through the scriptures of Revelations that there are areas of this Chapter where the Church is not mentioned. My question is "where is the Church"? If that is the parable of the woman fleeing into the wilderness, than I am inclined to think that SAINTS during the wrath will be hidden. My pastor thinks so too and it makes sense. But the verse that confuses me is when Christ comes during the Harvest.

This in revelations causes the confusion to me:
Rev 14
14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. ( IS THAT CHRIST GATHERING HIS BRIDE)
[17] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

IS THIS THE SEPARTION? IF NOT WHAT DOES THIS REPRESENT SAINTS?

Now as opposed as I am to pre-trib rapture doctrine, I am starting to lean towards pre-wrath. Unless, I am interpreting this wrong (and it is a possibility) It seems the seperation period is when Christ gathers his bride. But if it is not to be taken, where do we go?